Good post Markus - but it would be helpful as well to show to bait that these networks claim and what you really get. Meaning, what to look out for and is it truthful so they care be armed with the right knowledge. Cause the sad thing is they don't know what to believe or trust because it's not out there - so they get trapped in mess like this.
BlackAdTalk - Webmaster Forum
· 8 months ago
Well Dede to be honest they all lie... I don't know of any ad network that can guarantee a set CPM rate.. That's how the game is played... One can complain, or like myself work with multiple ad networks...
By the way, I have one site within GG network... And yes I have gotten paid, so i'm cool...
Dede @ Clutch
· 8 months ago
This I know. But, others don't. That's the point..
Erica@African-AmericanBrides
· 8 months ago
Yes! What Dede said. Some of these networks pay only who they want to pay to keep the fuss down. This is the same way it happened with that other network targeting blogs-of-color. They paid certain high-profile sites first and everyone else had to hustle to get even one payment. They should have just called it a pyramid scheme. Some folks still go for that kind of thing.
Like I said on the Twitter thread, I'm using a combination of Google AdSense, Glam, BlogHer, and a few relevant affiliates. Seems to work pretty well, so I never joined the GG one. But then I'm not really looking to sign up with one of these newer networks unless I've heard good things and I'm not holding my breath. ;)
Rev Run
· 8 months ago
The GG saga is such a joke. After the Midas touch, the GG touch, anything they touch gets ground. Would be interesting to reach out to management to hear their take on this. Markus?
BlackAdAgencyGuy
· 8 months ago
One thing I've noticed. This blog seems very anti-ad network. This is a wrong view because this is the main way we purchase against black sites since so many of you have sub 1 million visitors (which is about 98% of all black targeted sites)
@markus you said: "If you decide to try a new ad network, make sure you introduce their ads into your existing inventory slowly."
This couldnt be more wrong. Ad networks can only sell against what they see and most ad network servers will serve ads to sites than can finish campaigns....if you're only giving a test amount of impressions or turning the feed on and off and are brand new to boot make sure its a decent amount or you can't expect to get the more premium campaigns. SO your test method will fail 99% of the time (study the algorithms of serving across the major ad servers and you'll see what i say is true). We ASK ad network 'how much can X.com yield over Y period of time'...if all they see is a small pittance of your inventory they will probably guide the conversation to larger sites...so at least make your networks aware of what you can scale to.
You said: "Sell your Own Ads" I agree but Sites should go for selling their own ads but realize there will always be a need for a quality fill service because last time I checked...absolutely no medium to large publishers are dealing with 100% sell out situations....no one (we even use networks to access myspace, yahoo, and many other large outlets when we don't see a need to deal with them direct). I lead a planning department of 39 planners....we're getting hit with offers and introductions left and right. One thing rings true though...we don't have time to speak to publishers than have sub 500k uniques per month...preferably 1 million (not the best utilization of our time since us agency folks have to track every movement we make for billing via time cards of which sales pitch attendance is part of that). In many niche areas we frequently use ad networks because its a better model for us to discover new sites and still support a great deal of smaller websites (we've dumped millions in 2008 into 3 ad networks with black and/or hispanic reach that I won't pub and we've had great success with that - we don't do business with news aggregators and publisher initiated networks at all because they don't understand what it means to be an ad network. I've flat out told BET that we would not use their ad network and to only chat with us about BET.com only).
I'll let you in on a little secret too...us agency folks take advantage of sites that use google vs an ad network because its so much cheaper.....we also know that if you're in a performance based ad network that we will get more impressions out of the deal especially with black sites because conversion is bad on about 90% of sites out there but we still get the branding effects.
So my advice - Look for a CPM based network or two and stick with them for a few months at minimum - Pick up the phone and call them if you're seeing less than desirable results and ask them what can you do to make things better - Test a performance based network and jump ship after 3 months if your audience isnt converting with their ads - Look for a niche network specialist if you're in the niche space (there are black networks, hispanic networks, gay networks, senior networks, pet networks, etc) - Work with more than one network but not too many (we can see that) - Stay away from networks that have their own advertising vehicles (you're getting screwed there) - Stay away from new networks (this is why you're not getting paid) - Realize that if you're small change in terms of traffic...don't expect a high yield but consider the ads that you're getting from your network as great placeholders to show us proof of concept of how their ads will look on your site - Ask the network for advice on growing your traffic or even buy into them yourself - Realize that your site isn't linear in worth as the next site just because you're going after the same audience so your CPM can vary widely. We always stipulate that a site must be optimized out of a plan if there is no interaction rates or conversions. - Realize CPMs are not the same per campaign so no network will gaurantee you a set CPM but most networks offer you the possibility to set a floor (we pay a range from .05 to about 4.00 max for the ad networks we do business with) - Ask networks if you can establish a floor or base CPM and if they can back-fill your inventory if that floor is not met (and don't be so aggressive on the floor)
It's really simple. But I will say that all of you anti-ad network anti-rep-firm folks are missing out on a lot of buys that exclusively flow through those channels.
If a lot of you worked to understand how money flows a little better - you would be much more well off and this is coming from a fellow African American that controls a combined advertising budget of over half a billion dollars per year of which around 15-20 million is spread to multicultural websites and for us about 60% or more of that business is via ad networks that we've worked with for at least the past 5 years with a very small amount being tested directly on a handful of sites and then rest is spread across the larger sites that you can predict because they can move the impressions.
Dede @ Clutch
· 8 months ago
@ Black Ad Guy - and that is the problem. You as a planner need to start asking the right questions and figure out what you are really trying to accomplish for your client. Page Views/Impressions or really connecting and reaching the potential target/profile --- hence a return on their advertising investment.
The problem here is ad agencies and media planners are following the same tried and true formula and as you already know - it's not working. You choose to continue to advertise on sites such as BET, Essence and other entertainment blogs to get the eyeballs but while doing this nothing understanding what "eye balls" are really seeing your ads. Is it your client’s target? Most likely in a general sense yes - but is it the target they really want.
You and your team and industry friends are contributing to placing African Americans/Blacks in a box - by choosing to repeatedly not advertise and support sites that are not talking about the norm - because they need to reach "500K" - let's be real - what sites that are not talking about Rihanna and Chris all day or Beyonce are getting those numbers?
We as a people are diverse and have all likes and interests - but I can't tell you how many sites die every day - because the product is fresh and needed but can't get a dollar from ad revenue and when they fall or enter intro a ad agency - they get played.
For example - Cover Girl might advertise on BET, Media Takeout, Bossip, Essence - but is this the reader profile or target that brand or product wants - most likely and more then often - no. I am sure when my little cousin or even me looks at Bossip every day I don't care what ad is on the site and even checking for it because its ads all over the site. For MTO - same thing. Why would I support a brand that is on that site. For me I put the two together brand and brand and if MTO is bootleg to me - so is the brand who choosing to advertise there - real talk.
No one may say yes Essence is – but if Cover Girl sends a RFP (request for proposal) and their target profile is a young, trendy, women of color – Essence/BET is the general sense may do ok – but there are many online portals for young, black women who your client would benefit more by advertising on. Also, but doing so you are reaching the new, younger, tastemakers who are and going to take the place of old media.
As for Ad Networks: I think you are looking at this as an agency person and not a publisher. If you had a site you would understand - hence you are looking at this from another viewpoint.
1st Issue: Your comment that we are anti-agency. As someone who is currently with an ad agency and have been in one for a couple of years. I now know what 's good for me and my portal through trail and error. Most of these ad agencies are grouping sites in a sell. Which is understandable, but not always fair.
I can recall at my last agency I was grouped with the three top gossip/entertainment sites. So, when brands that were a direct match for my portal and audience we would get the scraps of the impressions - which again I understand. But, that is when agencies and brands need to figure out if they want quality over quantity. Hence, do you want a ad on a high - at times controversial site or do you want a site that the readers are the direct target and are more than likely to click-through and actually consider purchasing or supporting your clients product or service.
Also, you have to realize as a publisher - we are approached at least 3 times a month with deals like this and most of the time we are getting the wack part of the deal - so it's only normal - to feel anti-ad networks when you have been through this stuff - repeatedly.
Now let's go through your list: "Stay away from new networks (this is why you're not getting paid)" and "Stay away from networks that have their own advertising vehicles (you're getting screwed there)"
Dede: The point of the last two post here on Black Web. Most publishers online don't know this valuable information. They have no outlet to learn this. We are lucky to have Black Web and a group of online friends - but most of us can't mentor or walk all the new and emerging sites through this process and why they shouldn't do this.
" Ask the network for advice on growing your traffic or even buy into them yourself."
Dede: Most networks are not versed in telling you how to grow your site. They are not about educating their publishers. I remember when I asked a similar question to my past agency they told me become a Bossip. Now, I have nothing against Bossip - I happen to know the Bossip team - but as a publisher trying to do something new and fresh for Black women - to be told that by someone in an agency - tells me they are not informed about my mission and site goals (which I always share) and are looking for ways to get more page views by all means necessary - even if it's not right.
"Realize that if you're small change in terms of traffic...don't expect a high yield but consider the ads that you're getting from your network as great placeholders to show us proof of concept of how their ads will look on your site"
Dede: You as a media planner - need to look for what's new and what's next. As a small or mid sized publisher - you know most don't have the time and money to "prove" this to you. You need to do trial runs on certain sites to see the ROI and what happens when you try something new - hence getting on with a publisher as they grow. Most of the time - you all are the last to know what's hot and next - because of that exact same reason.
"Realize that your site isn't linear in worth as the next site just because you're going after the same audience so your CPM can vary widely. We always stipulate that a site must be optimized out of a plan if there is no interaction rates or conversions."
Dede: Ad agencies/planners - need to come up with a new initiative to work with these emerging publishers instead of pushing them into a situation like these ad agencies.
"It's really simple. But I will say that all of you anti-ad network"
Dede: I have been watching your comments lately and I see you seem very smart and informed as a media planner - but what you not informed on is being a publisher. Everything is not easy or "simple" if it was we would all be doing very well. You sir and your media planner family and thought process is what is keeping publishers from growing and getting their fair shake and opportunity for real revenue.
BlackAdAgencyGuy
· 8 months ago
Thanks for the perspective Dede. I definitely know how to do my job lol. I see your posts here and they are very opinionated/polarizing in most cases but still good reads.
Guess what. I've worked for 2 publishers (1 mammoth/1 start up in the black space who folded because they didnt want to partner and monetize)...3 ad agencies...1 job on the client side... and 2 ad networks (in the television space).... Although I just dated myself there (i am less than 50 still lol) I am very well versed in all perspectives and only trying to give perspective on how cash flows, sales happen, and the importance of relationships and reps.
We *do* test some smaller sites directly (i believe I said that) but if they are too small and can't deliver on impressions...whats the point? We don't invest in ideas or forward thinking comments....we've been burned there too many times... It loses us money. We don't invest in aesthetics and pretty sites with 0 traffic but we may watch them for a few months. Also smaller sites tend to overcharge to compensate on the lack of traffic and most of the time still cant deliver. This doesnt make the best sense for our clients either. The strong survive....plain and simple. You yourself wouldnt let a person with a hammer and a box of nails build your house for a million dollars...its the same effect in how we need to maximize how we approach websites....working with a clearing house to support the smaller outlet sector is a better utilization of our time (we do the same to penetrate local market tv and radio stations -- meaning work with networks/rep firms)
We've kept our current client roster for the last 5 years and have had nothing but success in our campaigns in the multicultural area (otherwise i would be out of a job).
Great convo -- just trying to open some eyes so I don't see your resumes posted up on HotJobs from being stubborn lol. This week alone we've spent 1 million on ad networks with about 100k going to a black and hispanic network respectively because we want to be in that small site sector. Guess you wont be a part of that. Too bad! (keeping an eye on your site though and that pretty profile thumb wink- wink-wink)
Do your thing! It *may* work out!
nOva_SB
· 8 months ago
@ BAAG:
I think part of what Dede is saying is that working with sites that get x amount of eyeballs isn't really being picky. Telling Black publishers to "get their numbers" up in order to reap the benefits of the market is counterintuitive in that it encourages selling out and questionable content.
I know a number of Black bloggers and site owners that produce content that is intelligent, non-exploitve, progressive and mature, but the advertisers that would most benefit from their audiences don't know about those sites because of your antiquated notions.
For example, there may be an advertiser out there that wants to place ads about a product or service that doesn't cater to the mainstream. They decide to work with an established ad network but all the network specializes in are gossip and hip-hop site that get millions of pageviews per month. Not exactly the advertiser's target market (since that type of exposure may not translate into someone actually purchasing their product) but they take a chance based on the network's brand or rep and potential exposure. In the meantime, you have a publisher that courts the advertiser's specific market, but the site in question falls just below the number of hits the ad network needs in order to deem it viable. So now the advertiser loses out and so does the site that could've benefited from that business.
You keep thinking in terms of dollars but not sense.
Dede @ Clutch
· 8 months ago
@ Black Ad Guy - you have truly made my day! LOL - thanks so much.
Well - thanks so much for your comment and response. One thing I can assure is you wont see my resume there (kinda spoiled) and I will do everything in my power to try to keep my online family off there as well. See - that's the difference here - I like to educate and uplift those going through this mess.
As I stated earlier - I am with an agency - Black Rock Digital. As far as your recent ad buy - no worries there. If someone or a brand doesn't recognize me or my brand - then the lost is not mine. I can pretty much only speak for myself - but I would rather continue to keep my current lifestyle and goals/mission for Clutch/Cullen then to get an ad buy from someone or a brand that is questioning it or it's potential.
The sad thing here Mr. Ad Guy is why you are boasting your most recent ad buy - there are others out there that could benefit from it. As for "pretty" and happy Dede (that I am - thanks) I am happy to stick in there for the long haul.
I just hope your resume doesn't cross my desk one day - cause - I wouldn't wanna test that out - cause my client roster wouldn't want old thoughts and ways on my team making outdated decisions.
As for my family - Nova, Afrobella, BlackWeb, Gina, Brown Sista, Black and Married with Kids and others - don't worry - you will get there with or without them. Don't compromise yourself or your mission for some money.
BlackAdAgencyGuy
· 8 months ago
I think for the most part we've relegated to little insults which is the story of black folks from the beginning. Again guys, just trying to give perspective on how money flows and time is used. at the end of the day if a site can't deliver -- it doesnt help us if we have a controlled message that we have to get out in a short period of time.
I'm done -- fading to black until another blog story catches my interest.
I will give you an email soon Dede (im about to mack her yall - @dede just kidding!)
Great convo/Peace
Dede @ Clutch
· 8 months ago
Great..Cause I hate conversing with know-it-all's. But, thanks for trying to drop some knowledge. I do appreciate that.
This was fun! (cheese and a wink)
xoxo, Dede
Herb
· 8 months ago
Great overview, BAAG; definitely filled in some gaps that I'd been seeing with my stuff.
nOva_SB
· 8 months ago
I was approached by GG and smelled the BS a mile away, and told them as much. Months later, they hit me up again. I am approached by some new "urban", "black" or "hip hop" -branded ad-net every few weeks and every single one of their offers sucks. So, to respond to B.A.A.G. above me, I have elected not to approach any such network for many of the reasons you stated, but they are approaching ME. In this scenario, I don't see where it's incumbent upon the blogger/publisher to have his/her "sh*t together".
Gina
· 8 months ago
@blackadagencyguy If a group of Black oriented blogs got together and could produce a million visits/uniques/impressions ( I don't know that you've distinguished), what would they need to do to cut out these random ad networks.
Do you care if you get 10 sites that pull in 100,000 visits versus 20 pulling in 50,000? Because the ad networks don't appear to be doing anything Black bloggers could not do on their own and cut out the unnecessary overhead.
A Girl
· 8 months ago
Hey Nova *waves*
Your story is mine as well. I get approached almost daily, again yesterday as a matter of fact by some company named Antventure.com, an obvious start up. As for GG, I knew it was network I didn't want to mess with and I know several bloggers who also waited as long as 6 months to finally get paid.
Gossip Bodega
· 8 months ago
It's the same premise as a "Buy Here Pay Here, No Credit Refused" car lot. If you setup shop in the hood and cater to a majority ignorant clientele, then you're going to definitely get over and make a few dollars. But you're also going to run into the more educated clientele that can smell the BS from 20 miles away and keep it moving. There's always ignorant people out there to take advantage of, but the Web 3.0 crowd aint goin for it. I must get approached by these companies at least once a week and I hate to be rude, but I just kindly tell them Im not interested at this moment.
BlackAdAgencyGuy
· 8 months ago
@Gina (hi!) - Great Question: "If a group of Black oriented blogs got together and could produce a million visits/uniques/impressions ( I don't know that you've distinguished), what would they need to do to cut out these random ad networks" >>> (it was over a million uniques per 30 days).....To answer your question it means that you yourself becomes an ad network and in the model you're talking about you're bound to lose friends due to internal competition and jocking for positioning for in many cases limited ad dollars. Also, when networks are small, we evaluate every site independently and pick the sites we want unless they all share similar content or reach the same audience. I honestly foresee that type of model getting potentially really nasty because as with any "singing group"...there is a clear cut leader and what happens when 'Beyonce' gets really big and figures out she can eventually 'cut' you out? ---The smaller parts will fade away having mediocre (Kelly/Latoya) to no success (those other no names I no longer remember lol). It's a user model where the strong will build themselves on the smaller parts and the smaller parts will be left along and scarred....way too many kinks in that model (what if a site gets called directly and chooses not to bring that to your cooperation network? gets nasty). You'll have a lot less head-ache rolling with an established partner independently (i think). Focus on YOUR business.
You said "Do you care if you get 10 sites that pull in 100,000 visits versus 20 pulling in 50,000? Because the ad networks don't appear to be doing anything Black bloggers could not do on their own and cut out the unnecessary overhead." >>>To be honest either view looks ok as long as the site's are quality.
Please be aware that 'ad networks and rep firms' have existed in the current sense since the 1920's ...they are not villains and they provide a quality service that would burn through your personal cash very quickly. Items like technology infrastructure (ie ad serving), ease of administration (negotiations/knowing how to aggressively sale), traffic and monitoring, handling of paperwork/billing, and most importantly an established sales force with deep contacts with advertisers and their agencies that you may never be able to garner and maintain outside of phone chat --with that said.. I really don't agree with all of the cut out language because these companies have a place in the scheme of advertising negotiations because it makes our lives easier (again...Most of the major publishers in the top 50 of all websites use ad networks networks, local market television stations use networks (we buy spot tv exclusively through networks as a matter of fact via companies like http://www.telerepinc.com which is HUGE and provides and incredible service), radio stations use networks, magazines use networks but so many here are staunchly against networks -- it really doesnt make sense financially for you not to use an established network). The problem that's really hitting the black space is that there are a lot of company's that threw their hat into the fray quickly when the word 'ad network' was really hot in the latter part of last year and a lot of folks got burned by over promises.
There are a handful of really great niche market networks out there that are very very established that I would encourage you personally check out vs taking the word of a friend about their experience because your site's are not a like....very few are!
Rule of thumb - Dont work with network less than 3 years old - Don't work with networks that mandate exclusivity in any sense - Be a little skeptical of networks 3-5 years old but be more willing to test them - A network that has survived beyond 5 years will be around and should be tested - Work with a minority owned company (if you can find one) and not just a firm trying to take advantage of the moment of cutting into black dollars (a minority owned, operated, and controlled company is like working with family and what I've wanted to see in the cooperation of black site owners for years -- these are people too -- not to be hated -- they have families they are trying to feed -- and believe it or not...they dont have pointy tales and horns under their perms and naturals lol.
I know of 2 minority owned, operated, and controlled networks in the Hispanic and Black sectors that are worth working with if you have the kind of content they are looking for. Both companies are well over 10 years old and we see sales people from their companies almost monthly and have a great rapport with each company (again im not pubbing any companies here).
nOva_SB
· 8 months ago
I think it would be to everyone's benefit to actually name the companies that will benefit the publishers as opposed to defending adnets while harboring the info people need. If we are here to share advice, then we must also share facts and resources. Otherwise, the conversation gets lost in speculation, innuendo and anecdotal evidence.
Dede @ Clutch
· 8 months ago
Also, if you are talking about Adgroups ...lol - we have all been there and done that. Not an option.
BlackAdAgencyGuy
· 8 months ago
AdGroups, HispanoClick, GorillaNation, Google are the only companies we work with on Multicultural ad network scene outside of buying direct sites (starting to expirament with facebook profile targeting as well). The staffs at all 4 companies are incredibly supportive and smart and the first 3 all offer custom options beyond just network options so its a win for us (would only recommend working with google if you're in the hispanic space because honestly black ad dollars are super cheap there which helps us more than you.
This year alone we've spent in excess of 4 million across those outlets just in multicultural and are starting to include them in general market campaigns as well.
We've turned down and will continue to turn down offers from BET's network, GG, Glam black, and Essence's network because they arent real dedicated networks. We realize that.
I do realize that all ad networks won't work globally for all sites.....i guess its those less than expected experiences and improper testing that makes a lot of people here come off as really negative (I have a lot of publishing and blogger in-real-life buds and i have to set all their expectations as well..."when you're small -- you're going to make change -- stick with it").
BTW - Hispanic pays gangbusters in google's program
AroundHarlem.com
· 8 months ago
Tell us about the buying of direct sites.
Give us ALL the details.
Liz
· 8 months ago
i know of some minority ad networks (ahem) who have delayed payments by a long shot. then tried to counter back with "but we're black owned" as a reason to stick with them and their bs. don't fall for the okie doke.
i am anti-ad network, unless of course you have enough traffic to sustain some decent leverage with one. Most black bloggers don't at this point (the top 3 black blogs have a shot, if that). For the most part they are all evil and trynna get over if you are below a (fairly high) threshold.
Gina
· 8 months ago
@Dede I've been pretty consistent in thinking an ad-based model for revenue is a dead ender for the average indie blogger. Yes, ads have a role and should have a place as a revenue stream, but the relationships/brand whatever you build are far more valuable in other ways. I look at Ebony and Jet sitting on tens ( possibly hundreds)of millions of dollars of value based on the "relationship" they ought to have with their readers and shake my head in awe at the thought they could go under. Why on earth would we walk the same path?
I am just trying to demystify the hustle to help others. I've got Google Adsense up on my blogs just because I was badgered about it ( I think you were there :)) Low and behold the checks start flowing in. It was the first time I had any idea what my "passion" was "worth' in a tangible way. I remember offering a special that charged a dollar a day because ads to me had little or no value. They still don't. I laugh at how little I valued my own sites. Adsense is a rough estimate of course, but to someone who would do it anyway for free, it helps know what NOT to do. Sure Google is the Devil, but it help to know where Hell (or the bottom of the barrel) is located.
Can't wait for somebody on this board to buy Ebony and Jet. Hopefully they will not have completely gone under by then.
John
· 8 months ago
What do ad networks really mean these days. There are the old and tired advertising.com (horizontal) and there are many new VERTICAL ad networks mostly powered by a company called Adify. There are a few companies that also power vertical ad networks but I wouldn't put those networks in the same 'negative' space some of you keep doing.
The aggregation of like sites for a common cause is very different than a random site in a random network getting random advertising. Vertical ad networks help enable highly targeted advertising around a specific demographic while doing other forms of targeting like BT, Geo, etc. This is great for the advertiser. This is also great for the publisher because in no way can a publisher with low delivery have quality brand advertising unless they are part of such vertical ad networks. These networks filter out bad content sites and maintain high quality because it makes sense for them to do that.
Also, networks taking time to pay is NOT always the networks fault. Haven't you guys realized that is has become increasingly hard to collect from advertisiers and agencies. Even a network like GLAM went to a net 120 or higher because of this. Even Google had issues paying. Even Apple is having issues paying their iPhone developers...everyone is having issues!
I don't think some of you truly understand the online advertising business inside out but do a great job with your blogs by smearing circumstances out of a networks control, or an advertiser, or even an agency. Publishers can hound for payment and I dont blame them. Times are tough. But some need to understand the overall process of what it takes to collect payment before blaming anyone. Its not lime networks don't want to pay. It is their business and some their livelihood. These venture backed networks that NEED to produce and NEED to keep their publishers happy.
Late payment is a product of what is happening in the economy. You should get angry an NO payment and blog about that!!!
BlackAdTalk - Webmaster Forum
· 8 months ago
Well actually I have never had to beg a non-black ad network for my MONEY... Have worked with Valueclick ( aka... Formely Fastclick ), Burst Media, Casale media for years... Minus Burst Media, the other 2 networks are Net 30...
-Smile-
Gee
· 8 months ago
Whoa...those are all the BIG ad networks. Those surpass all the "black" ones. What website are you using that on?
HipHopFred
· 8 months ago
Damn John -- that was so well put: Thanks for the clarity (you too BlackAdAgency guy). Be aware that it's always the same people on this blog that have the most negative and nasty things to say and its starting to make this site look bad in the way people with sense are attacked. I am in a vertical (black) ad network and i'm having a ball. My site isn't large but I'm not expecting a mint in snatch yet either but I do have a lot of relevant ads on my site that I wouldn't have in any other sense and its helped me to get interest from other advertisers which that company represents me for as well. They've been max 1-2 weeks late from what I was expecting every now and then but thats nothing abnormal to me.
The amount of disrespect towards people that speak the truth and are just trying to help us is incredible and probably making a lot of real professionals go elsewhere I'm sure. STFU little guys. If you ain't sitting on a milly minimum just don't talk - 4 real - just shhhhh. The jack-a in you is ringing hard and the big guys are just shaking their heads. The G-O-D don't like ugly...know this and karma is a MF.
Fellow publishers..don't let someone that ain't making the dough tell you what to do with your hustle or how to think. Do u. John...great words.
No Clue
· 8 months ago
Dude. Who online is making 1 million? Even Bossip and MTO the top black sites are not there --- you sound new and uninformed. This post is to warn people of the traps. GG, Rushmore, Essence ad networks are all traps for your traffic to get them more impressions for a higher ad buy.
Who is being disrespectful? Publishers are sharing their experiences and you need to take note before it happens to you Freddy.
nOva_SB
· 8 months ago
Thanks, No Clue. I don't think the intent of the discussion was to villify ad-nets as a whole, rather than share stories about the bad apples.
I will say that, at least when people were sharing negative experiences they were able to name names, whereas those of us who were robustly defending them provided very little specifics and wanted to "lecture" the "little guys" on "how the business works". Additionally, very little of that lip-service went to exploring why certain ad networks courting the publisher instead of the other way around. I have one such network pursuing me right now and never once did they mention that my site was "too small" to work with them.
How do you explain that?
At any rate, I haven't had any bad experiences with late payments, etc, because I never let the one situation I was in escalate to that point. But the offers I've since received are laughable. Be it GG, BET or MOG. They're all incrediably wack, so the only advice I would have for anyone is be on the look out for these branded adnets. They talk a good game but aren't offering anything. The moment we see the words "We cater to Urban and Hip-Hop publishers", I suggest you run like hell.
HipHopFred
· 8 months ago
Like I said -- expected as much in a response -- no surprised (btw Bossip and MTO aint the top black sites in traffic or ad sales - do your homework sonny and get out of the 'just blogger' realm and gossip realm). Love the side insults and jabs. That was even my first post here. You guys don't realize that your experience is not going to be shared with the next site. I love big mac my girlfriend doesnt.
I think the bar is set to high for people that really dont understand the purpose of fill services
Im out - never responded here and never will again. Back to BigTent at adage for me where the grown folks are.
No Clue
· 8 months ago
again... no clue.
If you look at Comscore (what lots of brands use to measure sites) stated BV, Essence, BET, MTO, Bossip and YBF are the top sites. None of here are in the "just blogger" mind state - but it seems you are. (also look at compete, quantcast)
If you are looking at sites that are not owned by "old media" or corporations - then MTO, Bossip and YBF are top.
And please - let me know what are the top sites - since you know. Please let us all know that live and eat this.
Sorry - if you couldn't come up with a valid or informed response.
HipHopFred
· 8 months ago
I worked at Comscore and have been subscribed to Comscore and Netratings (and all sub products) across several companies. NOW HEAR THIS: both companies SUCK for black website measurement and could care less about black sites. Neither service has a black site category and don't see the need for them at all.
After BET, BlackPlanet, BV, there is a huge drop off to BAW and AHH and after those 2 sites its everyone else with a seperation in the hundreds of thousands and guess what -- there are a nice handful of black sites in a that chasm in between but none show up. Why? Because the large bulk of blacks are less likely to participate in big brother tracking programs...it's a known fact. Plus its just a panel so some site's are even overstated in the panel since 1 black person represents an abnormal share of blacks in the US.
Both services have a dedicated hispanic panel but no one cares to make one dedicated to black.
Realize that you may never know who you're talking to - - too funny!
Im out! say what you want for that last word -- live and eat on that
Anthony Farrior
· 8 months ago
Learned a lot about ad networks today!!!!
NerdwithSwag
· 8 months ago
Same situation happened to me, initially with RushMore drive who told me our relationship would be highly profitable, then had me running ads on my site for MONTHS that yielded zero profit, ZERO. Then they never contacted me again... The nerve of some folks?!
GlobalGrind also approached me to joint their network for a similar deal, but being that I had the horrible experience with RushMoreDrive I was highly hesitant, good thing I looked out the contract though, it was incredibly fishy. I then told the representative that i'd wait and see how GG heads in the near future, then come up with my final decision. Moral of the story? Stay independent brothas and sistas!!!
nOva_SB
· 8 months ago
Wassup NWS! Be careful telling your horror stories on here or someone will find a way to make it all your fault, LOL.
John
· 8 months ago
Again, a lot of these networks are new and a lot of the processes are new. The industry was just introduced to vertical ad networks. Some work great and some not so great. It actually takes a network a good year to 2 years to really become a good contender. A business is not started overnight and neither are vertical ad networks. GG, MOG, etc are new. The platform they use seems to be developing into something big and it will take time. The fact that you can be part of many networks, AND do your own media sales, what do we as publishers have to loose really? I have used networks that I was able to put in a redirect to another provider when no campaigns are available and still made money. No loss there. I agree with the annoyance of late payment, but again, late better than never these days and we will see a consolidation of VERTICAL ad networks(which again I would not include in the same sentence as HORIZONTAL ad networks) in the months to come. There is a lot going on out there and one unhappy publisher should not try to represent a whole network just by their experience. I am in one and am very happy with the service and revenue. It honestly comes down to trying a few and see what works for you. Remember that the revenue is directly proportional to the media sales teams they have...and some suck and some suck really bad! Media sales folks are the sleaziest of them all (i think). Stay independent and join networks...try to make as much money as you can...and in the end, if staying independent is better then rock on!
There is no RIGHT answer...the industry is still too young.
John
· 8 months ago
Also, I just realized that this blog is part of a vertical ad network...I do see the Adify tags load up in the footer...how is that going for ya and how many networks are you part of??
Gina
· 8 months ago
I think we can all agree that everyone on this comment thread wants African American bloggers, publishers, developers to have the same access to opportunity, capital and success as those in other groups. Folks who read this blog are the choir. So right now we're all fighting over the A and B selection.
There are those in the Black blogosphere who are totally oblivious to both sides of this argument and are ripe for exploitation.
This was a good discussion thread however.
John
· 8 months ago
I agree. I think it is too bad it started angry and with finger pointing. Very unnecessary but thanks for the forum.
All Comments
By the way, I have one site within GG network... And yes I have gotten paid, so i'm cool...
Like I said on the Twitter thread, I'm using a combination of Google AdSense, Glam, BlogHer, and a few relevant affiliates. Seems to work pretty well, so I never joined the GG one. But then I'm not really looking to sign up with one of these newer networks unless I've heard good things and I'm not holding my breath. ;)
@markus
you said: "If you decide to try a new ad network, make sure you introduce their ads into your existing inventory slowly."
This couldnt be more wrong. Ad networks can only sell against what they see and most ad network servers will serve ads to sites than can finish campaigns....if you're only giving a test amount of impressions or turning the feed on and off and are brand new to boot make sure its a decent amount or you can't expect to get the more premium campaigns. SO your test method will fail 99% of the time (study the algorithms of serving across the major ad servers and you'll see what i say is true). We ASK ad network 'how much can X.com yield over Y period of time'...if all they see is a small pittance of your inventory they will probably guide the conversation to larger sites...so at least make your networks aware of what you can scale to.
You said: "Sell your Own Ads"
I agree but Sites should go for selling their own ads but realize there will always be a need for a quality fill service because last time I checked...absolutely no medium to large publishers are dealing with 100% sell out situations....no one (we even use networks to access myspace, yahoo, and many other large outlets when we don't see a need to deal with them direct). I lead a planning department of 39 planners....we're getting hit with offers and introductions left and right. One thing rings true though...we don't have time to speak to publishers than have sub 500k uniques per month...preferably 1 million (not the best utilization of our time since us agency folks have to track every movement we make for billing via time cards of which sales pitch attendance is part of that). In many niche areas we frequently use ad networks because its a better model for us to discover new sites and still support a great deal of smaller websites (we've dumped millions in 2008 into 3 ad networks with black and/or hispanic reach that I won't pub and we've had great success with that - we don't do business with news aggregators and publisher initiated networks at all because they don't understand what it means to be an ad network. I've flat out told BET that we would not use their ad network and to only chat with us about BET.com only).
I'll let you in on a little secret too...us agency folks take advantage of sites that use google vs an ad network because its so much cheaper.....we also know that if you're in a performance based ad network that we will get more impressions out of the deal especially with black sites because conversion is bad on about 90% of sites out there but we still get the branding effects.
So my advice
- Look for a CPM based network or two and stick with them for a few months at minimum
- Pick up the phone and call them if you're seeing less than desirable results and ask them what can you do to make things better
- Test a performance based network and jump ship after 3 months if your audience isnt converting with their ads
- Look for a niche network specialist if you're in the niche space (there are black networks, hispanic networks, gay networks, senior networks, pet networks, etc)
- Work with more than one network but not too many (we can see that)
- Stay away from networks that have their own advertising vehicles (you're getting screwed there)
- Stay away from new networks (this is why you're not getting paid)
- Realize that if you're small change in terms of traffic...don't expect a high yield but consider the ads that you're getting from your network as great placeholders to show us proof of concept of how their ads will look on your site
- Ask the network for advice on growing your traffic or even buy into them yourself
- Realize that your site isn't linear in worth as the next site just because you're going after the same audience so your CPM can vary widely. We always stipulate that a site must be optimized out of a plan if there is no interaction rates or conversions.
- Realize CPMs are not the same per campaign so no network will gaurantee you a set CPM but most networks offer you the possibility to set a floor (we pay a range from .05 to about 4.00 max for the ad networks we do business with)
- Ask networks if you can establish a floor or base CPM and if they can back-fill your inventory if that floor is not met (and don't be so aggressive on the floor)
It's really simple. But I will say that all of you anti-ad network anti-rep-firm folks are missing out on a lot of buys that exclusively flow through those channels.
If a lot of you worked to understand how money flows a little better - you would be much more well off and this is coming from a fellow African American that controls a combined advertising budget of over half a billion dollars per year of which around 15-20 million is spread to multicultural websites and for us about 60% or more of that business is via ad networks that we've worked with for at least the past 5 years with a very small amount being tested directly on a handful of sites and then rest is spread across the larger sites that you can predict because they can move the impressions.
The problem here is ad agencies and media planners are following the same tried and true formula and as you already know - it's not working. You choose to continue to advertise on sites such as BET, Essence and other entertainment blogs to get the eyeballs but while doing this nothing understanding what "eye balls" are really seeing your ads. Is it your client’s target? Most likely in a general sense yes - but is it the target they really want.
You and your team and industry friends are contributing to placing African Americans/Blacks in a box - by choosing to repeatedly not advertise and support sites that are not talking about the norm - because they need to reach "500K" - let's be real - what sites that are not talking about Rihanna and Chris all day or Beyonce are getting those numbers?
We as a people are diverse and have all likes and interests - but I can't tell you how many sites die every day - because the product is fresh and needed but can't get a dollar from ad revenue and when they fall or enter intro a ad agency - they get played.
For example - Cover Girl might advertise on BET, Media Takeout, Bossip, Essence - but is this the reader profile or target that brand or product wants - most likely and more then often - no. I am sure when my little cousin or even me looks at Bossip every day I don't care what ad is on the site and even checking for it because its ads all over the site. For MTO - same thing. Why would I support a brand that is on that site. For me I put the two together brand and brand and if MTO is bootleg to me - so is the brand who choosing to advertise there - real talk.
No one may say yes Essence is – but if Cover Girl sends a RFP (request for proposal) and their target profile is a young, trendy, women of color – Essence/BET is the general sense may do ok – but there are many online portals for young, black women who your client would benefit more by advertising on. Also, but doing so you are reaching the new, younger, tastemakers who are and going to take the place of old media.
As for Ad Networks:
I think you are looking at this as an agency person and not a publisher. If you had a site you would understand - hence you are looking at this from another viewpoint.
1st Issue: Your comment that we are anti-agency. As someone who is currently with an ad agency and have been in one for a couple of years. I now know what 's good for me and my portal through trail and error. Most of these ad agencies are grouping sites in a sell. Which is understandable, but not always fair.
I can recall at my last agency I was grouped with the three top gossip/entertainment sites. So, when brands that were a direct match for my portal and audience we would get the scraps of the impressions - which again I understand. But, that is when agencies and brands need to figure out if they want quality over quantity. Hence, do you want a ad on a high - at times controversial site or do you want a site that the readers are the direct target and are more than likely to click-through and actually consider purchasing or supporting your clients product or service.
Also, you have to realize as a publisher - we are approached at least 3 times a month with deals like this and most of the time we are getting the wack part of the deal - so it's only normal - to feel anti-ad networks when you have been through this stuff - repeatedly.
Now let's go through your list:
"Stay away from new networks (this is why you're not getting paid)" and
"Stay away from networks that have their own advertising vehicles (you're getting screwed there)"
Dede: The point of the last two post here on Black Web. Most publishers online don't know this valuable information. They have no outlet to learn this. We are lucky to have Black Web and a group of online friends - but most of us can't mentor or walk all the new and emerging sites through this process and why they shouldn't do this.
" Ask the network for advice on growing your traffic or even buy into them yourself."
Dede: Most networks are not versed in telling you how to grow your site. They are not about educating their publishers. I remember when I asked a similar question to my past agency they told me become a Bossip. Now, I have nothing against Bossip - I happen to know the Bossip team - but as a publisher trying to do something new and fresh for Black women - to be told that by someone in an agency - tells me they are not informed about my mission and site goals (which I always share) and are looking for ways to get more page views by all means necessary - even if it's not right.
"Realize that if you're small change in terms of traffic...don't expect a high yield but consider the ads that you're getting from your network as great placeholders to show us proof of concept of how their ads will look on your site"
Dede: You as a media planner - need to look for what's new and what's next. As a small or mid sized publisher - you know most don't have the time and money to "prove" this to you. You need to do trial runs on certain sites to see the ROI and what happens when you try something new - hence getting on with a publisher as they grow. Most of the time - you all are the last to know what's hot and next - because of that exact same reason.
"Realize that your site isn't linear in worth as the next site just because you're going after the same audience so your CPM can vary widely. We always stipulate that a site must be optimized out of a plan if there is no interaction rates or conversions."
Dede: Ad agencies/planners - need to come up with a new initiative to work with these emerging publishers instead of pushing them into a situation like these ad agencies.
"It's really simple. But I will say that all of you anti-ad network"
Dede: I have been watching your comments lately and I see you seem very smart and informed as a media planner - but what you not informed on is being a publisher. Everything is not easy or "simple" if it was we would all be doing very well. You sir and your media planner family and thought process is what is keeping publishers from growing and getting their fair shake and opportunity for real revenue.
Guess what. I've worked for 2 publishers (1 mammoth/1 start up in the black space who folded because they didnt want to partner and monetize)...3 ad agencies...1 job on the client side... and 2 ad networks (in the television space).... Although I just dated myself there (i am less than 50 still lol) I am very well versed in all perspectives and only trying to give perspective on how cash flows, sales happen, and the importance of relationships and reps.
We *do* test some smaller sites directly (i believe I said that) but if they are too small and can't deliver on impressions...whats the point? We don't invest in ideas or forward thinking comments....we've been burned there too many times... It loses us money. We don't invest in aesthetics and pretty sites with 0 traffic but we may watch them for a few months. Also smaller sites tend to overcharge to compensate on the lack of traffic and most of the time still cant deliver. This doesnt make the best sense for our clients either. The strong survive....plain and simple. You yourself wouldnt let a person with a hammer and a box of nails build your house for a million dollars...its the same effect in how we need to maximize how we approach websites....working with a clearing house to support the smaller outlet sector is a better utilization of our time (we do the same to penetrate local market tv and radio stations -- meaning work with networks/rep firms)
We've kept our current client roster for the last 5 years and have had nothing but success in our campaigns in the multicultural area (otherwise i would be out of a job).
Great convo -- just trying to open some eyes so I don't see your resumes posted up on HotJobs from being stubborn lol. This week alone we've spent 1 million on ad networks with about 100k going to a black and hispanic network respectively because we want to be in that small site sector. Guess you wont be a part of that. Too bad! (keeping an eye on your site though and that pretty profile thumb wink- wink-wink)
Do your thing! It *may* work out!
I think part of what Dede is saying is that working with sites that get x amount of eyeballs isn't really being picky. Telling Black publishers to "get their numbers" up in order to reap the benefits of the market is counterintuitive in that it encourages selling out and questionable content.
I know a number of Black bloggers and site owners that produce content that is intelligent, non-exploitve, progressive and mature, but the advertisers that would most benefit from their audiences don't know about those sites because of your antiquated notions.
For example, there may be an advertiser out there that wants to place ads about a product or service that doesn't cater to the mainstream. They decide to work with an established ad network but all the network specializes in are gossip and hip-hop site that get millions of pageviews per month. Not exactly the advertiser's target market (since that type of exposure may not translate into someone actually purchasing their product) but they take a chance based on the network's brand or rep and potential exposure. In the meantime, you have a publisher that courts the advertiser's specific market, but the site in question falls just below the number of hits the ad network needs in order to deem it viable. So now the advertiser loses out and so does the site that could've benefited from that business.
You keep thinking in terms of dollars but not sense.
Well - thanks so much for your comment and response. One thing I can assure is you wont see my resume there (kinda spoiled) and I will do everything in my power to try to keep my online family off there as well. See - that's the difference here - I like to educate and uplift those going through this mess.
As I stated earlier - I am with an agency - Black Rock Digital. As far as your recent ad buy - no worries there. If someone or a brand doesn't recognize me or my brand - then the lost is not mine. I can pretty much only speak for myself - but I would rather continue to keep my current lifestyle and goals/mission for Clutch/Cullen then to get an ad buy from someone or a brand that is questioning it or it's potential.
The sad thing here Mr. Ad Guy is why you are boasting your most recent ad buy - there are others out there that could benefit from it. As for "pretty" and happy Dede (that I am - thanks) I am happy to stick in there for the long haul.
I just hope your resume doesn't cross my desk one day - cause - I wouldn't wanna test that out - cause my client roster wouldn't want old thoughts and ways on my team making outdated decisions.
But, seriously - if you wanna talk to me - it's dsutton@clutchmagazine.com. (wink, wink)
As for my family - Nova, Afrobella, BlackWeb, Gina, Brown Sista, Black and Married with Kids and others - don't worry - you will get there with or without them. Don't compromise yourself or your mission for some money.
I'm done -- fading to black until another blog story catches my interest.
I will give you an email soon Dede (im about to mack her yall - @dede just kidding!)
Great convo/Peace
This was fun! (cheese and a wink)
xoxo, Dede
Do you care if you get 10 sites that pull in 100,000 visits versus 20 pulling in 50,000? Because the ad networks don't appear to be doing anything Black bloggers could not do on their own and cut out the unnecessary overhead.
Your story is mine as well. I get approached almost daily, again yesterday as a matter of fact by some company named Antventure.com, an obvious start up. As for GG, I knew it was network I didn't want to mess with and I know several bloggers who also waited as long as 6 months to finally get paid.
"If a group of Black oriented blogs got together and could produce a million visits/uniques/impressions ( I don't know that you've distinguished), what would they need to do to cut out these random ad networks"
>>> (it was over a million uniques per 30 days).....To answer your question it means that you yourself becomes an ad network and in the model you're talking about you're bound to lose friends due to internal competition and jocking for positioning for in many cases limited ad dollars. Also, when networks are small, we evaluate every site independently and pick the sites we want unless they all share similar content or reach the same audience. I honestly foresee that type of model getting potentially really nasty because as with any "singing group"...there is a clear cut leader and what happens when 'Beyonce' gets really big and figures out she can eventually 'cut' you out? ---The smaller parts will fade away having mediocre (Kelly/Latoya) to no success (those other no names I no longer remember lol). It's a user model where the strong will build themselves on the smaller parts and the smaller parts will be left along and scarred....way too many kinks in that model (what if a site gets called directly and chooses not to bring that to your cooperation network? gets nasty). You'll have a lot less head-ache rolling with an established partner independently (i think). Focus on YOUR business.
You said "Do you care if you get 10 sites that pull in 100,000 visits versus 20 pulling in 50,000? Because the ad networks don't appear to be doing anything Black bloggers could not do on their own and cut out the unnecessary overhead."
>>>To be honest either view looks ok as long as the site's are quality.
Please be aware that 'ad networks and rep firms' have existed in the current sense since the 1920's ...they are not villains and they provide a quality service that would burn through your personal cash very quickly. Items like technology infrastructure (ie ad serving), ease of administration (negotiations/knowing how to aggressively sale), traffic and monitoring, handling of paperwork/billing, and most importantly an established sales force with deep contacts with advertisers and their agencies that you may never be able to garner and maintain outside of phone chat --with that said.. I really don't agree with all of the cut out language because these companies have a place in the scheme of advertising negotiations because it makes our lives easier (again...Most of the major publishers in the top 50 of all websites use ad networks networks, local market television stations use networks (we buy spot tv exclusively through networks as a matter of fact via companies like http://www.telerepinc.com which is HUGE and provides and incredible service), radio stations use networks, magazines use networks but so many here are staunchly against networks -- it really doesnt make sense financially for you not to use an established network). The problem that's really hitting the black space is that there are a lot of company's that threw their hat into the fray quickly when the word 'ad network' was really hot in the latter part of last year and a lot of folks got burned by over promises.
There are a handful of really great niche market networks out there that are very very established that I would encourage you personally check out vs taking the word of a friend about their experience because your site's are not a like....very few are!
Rule of thumb
- Dont work with network less than 3 years old
- Don't work with networks that mandate exclusivity in any sense
- Be a little skeptical of networks 3-5 years old but be more willing to test them
- A network that has survived beyond 5 years will be around and should be tested
- Work with a minority owned company (if you can find one) and not just a firm trying to take advantage of the moment of cutting into black dollars (a minority owned, operated, and controlled company is like working with family and what I've wanted to see in the cooperation of black site owners for years -- these are people too -- not to be hated -- they have families they are trying to feed -- and believe it or not...they dont have pointy tales and horns under their perms and naturals lol.
I know of 2 minority owned, operated, and controlled networks in the Hispanic and Black sectors that are worth working with if you have the kind of content they are looking for. Both companies are well over 10 years old and we see sales people from their companies almost monthly and have a great rapport with each company (again im not pubbing any companies here).
This year alone we've spent in excess of 4 million across those outlets just in multicultural and are starting to include them in general market campaigns as well.
We've turned down and will continue to turn down offers from BET's network, GG, Glam black, and Essence's network because they arent real dedicated networks. We realize that.
I do realize that all ad networks won't work globally for all sites.....i guess its those less than expected experiences and improper testing that makes a lot of people here come off as really negative (I have a lot of publishing and blogger in-real-life buds and i have to set all their expectations as well..."when you're small -- you're going to make change -- stick with it").
BTW - Hispanic pays gangbusters in google's program
Give us ALL the details.
i am anti-ad network, unless of course you have enough traffic to sustain some decent leverage with one. Most black bloggers don't at this point (the top 3 black blogs have a shot, if that). For the most part they are all evil and trynna get over if you are below a (fairly high) threshold.
I am just trying to demystify the hustle to help others. I've got Google Adsense up on my blogs just because I was badgered about it ( I think you were there :)) Low and behold the checks start flowing in. It was the first time I had any idea what my "passion" was "worth' in a tangible way. I remember offering a special that charged a dollar a day because ads to me had little or no value. They still don't. I laugh at how little I valued my own sites. Adsense is a rough estimate of course, but to someone who would do it anyway for free, it helps know what NOT to do. Sure Google is the Devil, but it help to know where Hell (or the bottom of the barrel) is located.
Can't wait for somebody on this board to buy Ebony and Jet. Hopefully they will not have completely gone under by then.
The aggregation of like sites for a common cause is very different than a random site in a random network getting random advertising. Vertical ad networks help enable highly targeted advertising around a specific demographic while doing other forms of targeting like BT, Geo, etc. This is great for the advertiser. This is also great for the publisher because in no way can a publisher with low delivery have quality brand advertising unless they are part of such vertical ad networks. These networks filter out bad content sites and maintain high quality because it makes sense for them to do that.
Also, networks taking time to pay is NOT always the networks fault. Haven't you guys realized that is has become increasingly hard to collect from advertisiers and agencies. Even a network like GLAM went to a net 120 or higher because of this. Even Google had issues paying. Even Apple is having issues paying their iPhone developers...everyone is having issues!
I don't think some of you truly understand the online advertising business inside out but do a great job with your blogs by smearing circumstances out of a networks control, or an advertiser, or even an agency. Publishers can hound for payment and I dont blame them. Times are tough. But some need to understand the overall process of what it takes to collect payment before blaming anyone. Its not lime networks don't want to pay. It is their business and some their livelihood. These venture backed networks that NEED to produce and NEED to keep their publishers happy.
Late payment is a product of what is happening in the economy. You should get angry an NO payment and blog about that!!!
Have worked with Valueclick ( aka... Formely Fastclick ), Burst Media, Casale media for years...
Minus Burst Media, the other 2 networks are Net 30...
-Smile-
The amount of disrespect towards people that speak the truth and are just trying to help us is incredible and probably making a lot of real professionals go elsewhere I'm sure. STFU little guys. If you ain't sitting on a milly minimum just don't talk - 4 real - just shhhhh. The jack-a in you is ringing hard and the big guys are just shaking their heads. The G-O-D don't like ugly...know this and karma is a MF.
Fellow publishers..don't let someone that ain't making the dough tell you what to do with your hustle or how to think. Do u. John...great words.
Who is being disrespectful? Publishers are sharing their experiences and you need to take note before it happens to you Freddy.
I will say that, at least when people were sharing negative experiences they were able to name names, whereas those of us who were robustly defending them provided very little specifics and wanted to "lecture" the "little guys" on "how the business works". Additionally, very little of that lip-service went to exploring why certain ad networks courting the publisher instead of the other way around. I have one such network pursuing me right now and never once did they mention that my site was "too small" to work with them.
How do you explain that?
At any rate, I haven't had any bad experiences with late payments, etc, because I never let the one situation I was in escalate to that point. But the offers I've since received are laughable. Be it GG, BET or MOG. They're all incrediably wack, so the only advice I would have for anyone is be on the look out for these branded adnets. They talk a good game but aren't offering anything. The moment we see the words "We cater to Urban and Hip-Hop publishers", I suggest you run like hell.
I think the bar is set to high for people that really dont understand the purpose of fill services
Im out - never responded here and never will again. Back to BigTent at adage for me where the grown folks are.
If you look at Comscore (what lots of brands use to measure sites) stated BV, Essence, BET, MTO, Bossip and YBF are the top sites. None of here are in the "just blogger" mind state - but it seems you are. (also look at compete, quantcast)
If you are looking at sites that are not owned by "old media" or corporations - then MTO, Bossip and YBF are top.
And please - let me know what are the top sites - since you know. Please let us all know that live and eat this.
Sorry - if you couldn't come up with a valid or informed response.
After BET, BlackPlanet, BV, there is a huge drop off to BAW and AHH and after those 2 sites its everyone else with a seperation in the hundreds of thousands and guess what -- there are a nice handful of black sites in a that chasm in between but none show up. Why? Because the large bulk of blacks are less likely to participate in big brother tracking programs...it's a known fact. Plus its just a panel so some site's are even overstated in the panel since 1 black person represents an abnormal share of blacks in the US.
Both services have a dedicated hispanic panel but no one cares to make one dedicated to black.
Realize that you may never know who you're talking to - - too funny!
Im out! say what you want for that last word -- live and eat on that
GlobalGrind also approached me to joint their network for a similar deal, but being that I had the horrible experience with RushMoreDrive I was highly hesitant, good thing I looked out the contract though, it was incredibly fishy. I then told the representative that i'd wait and see how GG heads in the near future, then come up with my final decision. Moral of the story? Stay independent brothas and sistas!!!
The fact that you can be part of many networks, AND do your own media sales, what do we as publishers have to loose really? I have used networks that I was able to put in a redirect to another provider when no campaigns are available and still made money. No loss there.
I agree with the annoyance of late payment, but again, late better than never these days and we will see a consolidation of VERTICAL ad networks(which again I would not include in the same sentence as HORIZONTAL ad networks) in the months to come.
There is a lot going on out there and one unhappy publisher should not try to represent a whole network just by their experience. I am in one and am very happy with the service and revenue.
It honestly comes down to trying a few and see what works for you. Remember that the revenue is directly proportional to the media sales teams they have...and some suck and some suck really bad! Media sales folks are the sleaziest of them all (i think).
Stay independent and join networks...try to make as much money as you can...and in the end, if staying independent is better then rock on!
There is no RIGHT answer...the industry is still too young.
There are those in the Black blogosphere who are totally oblivious to both sides of this argument and are ripe for exploitation.
This was a good discussion thread however.